So, is it your contention, mr. research chemist, that pH testing of urine is a valid way of determining the pH status in a tumor microenvironment?

Also, is it not true that DCA is a small molecule and that the paper you cite is primarily focused on large-molecule-based therapies?

Is it also not true, mr. research chemist, that the (Cairns, et al) paper mentions that certain therapies will be more efficatious in lower-pH conditions and vice versa.

I see a distinct possibility here that you are advocating the putting of a lot of sick people (and/or their caregivers) to a lot of trouble based on, at best, some very dubious notions.

>
>Also, is it not true that DCA is a small molecule and that
>the paper you cite is primarily focused on
>large-molecule-based therapies?
>
>Is it also not true, mr. research chemist, that the (Cairns,
>et al) paper mentions that certain therapies will be more
>efficatious in lower-pH conditions and vice versa.
>
>I see a distinct possibility here that you are advocating
>the putting of a lot of sick people (and/or their
>caregivers) to a lot of trouble based on, at best, some very
>dubious notions.

Dear Incomeingduck

I would suggest that you read again the postings on this subject

Yes interpretation of the literature can be difficult for non technical people that is why I have tried to keep it simple.

I am not sure of your of technical background or education. It is not the purpose of this forum to provide an in depth scientific tutorial. Some of the experimental data which I would like posted on this forum is not possible at the moment.

If you would care to identify yourself and give me an email address I will send you more detailed scientific references and data provided that you are genuinely interested in assisting people on this forum.

If your objective is to discredit and disrupt the forum this would explain your desire to be known only as "Incomeingduck" and we will ignore your Quacks.

John A.
Research Chemist

However to the point incomingduck has raised: The topic of credibility and how we can separate the true and false and whatever comes in between. A good test is if whether X can be tested or reproduced. If X can be reproduced, then it is less likely to be mumbo. If X follows from what is already known, then X is less likely to be jumbo. It is always good to remember those points. Then there is the internet. If X is marketed via MLM otherwise known as "pyramid schemes" then X is very likely to be raw mumbojumbo. As always, proof requires pudding.

The site that incomingduck pointed to gets it wrong on a number of points. The best illustration is "7.35 to 7.45." That is alkaline full stop, but they are indicating that it is neutral. They use the word "body" If I measure the ph of my body, I will not get 5.3. I think they could have thought a little more before they typed. Their mistake? a really sloppy keyboard. They confuse ph of your anatomy with ph of internal organs and excretions. The readings will be different in each case, according to the function of whatever part is being measured.

Another test is to look for the words "research grant" or similar words. If you see that, you can bet it is moola jumbo.

Moola jumbo, indeed.

But I understand your wariness - there are plenty of money grubbers trying to take advantage of cancer patients on other websites.

Dear John L.

I am pleased that you are keeping a log of your Urine pH levels.
You are taking an important step foreward.

Some references say that pH levels are lowest and the acidity peaks in the early hours of the morning I do not have enough data to confirm if this applies to everyone but perhaps yours does.

If you contact me I will email you some interesting patient Data and bar charts for Saliva and Urine pH which shows how this particular patient's Saliva and Urine levels changed with diet over a two week period.

As a Scientist I was quite surprised at the results as most reputable medical publications tend to ignore this simple self monitoring method.

Your can use the Bar Chart Format w I will send to plot your results which makes it easier to see trend wise what is happening.
I would like to post these on the forum for all to see but so far this is not possible but Heather is looking into how it can be done.

It is interesting that Urine fluctuated much more that Saliva which is to be expected but changes in Saliva also fluctuate and tend to lag behind the urine changes.

It may be that not everyone can use diet alone to alter pH levels and require other additional measures.

We note that Rob Cairnes in his paper suggests Sodium Bicarbonate and Proton Pump Inhibitors etc. Appart from diet may be necessary for patients with sub clinical acidosis. I also note in some Publications that commonly prescribed Omeprazole (Proton Pump Inhibitor) in Vitro apparently also shuts down Cancer cell acid production and may very well function similarly to DCA at a much lower dose rate 40mg/day with virtually no side effects. This is very easy for doctors to prescribe and is even available as an OTC product in the USA.

P.S.
I am not sure how the various components of your diet rate as far as Acid or Alkaline foods as typically listed on Alkaline-Acid Food charts.

Best Regards and Keep in Touch

John A.
Research Chemist

Dear John L,

If you buy into the above you might want to also check and see if there are any shamans living near you who might be willing to provide their services for not too many shekels.

"The shaman enters a trance, either self-induced or through the aid of hallucinogens or fasting, to figure out what is wrong with the patient and what to do about it. The shaman or an assistant may pray, sing, chant, dance, or drum around the patient. Storytelling and other art forms may also be used. During the trance, the shaman's soul is believed to leave the body and travel to the spirit world in a search to help the sick person. This is where the shaman communicates with the spirits thought to be responsible for the illness. Although the shaman is in a state of trance, he is still conscious and aware. This allows him to bargain with the spirits who can help the patient's illness. The shaman returns and shares his or her vision with the sick person.

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/content/ETO_5_3X_Shamanism.asp?sitearea=ETO

Excerpts:

"Your stomach is so acidic that no food can change its acidity."

"If you hear someone say that your body is too acidic ... , you would be wise not to believe anything else the person tells you."

"You cannot change the acidity of any part of your body except your urine."

(Also see below-linked page describing where Quackwatch.org gets its funding.)

Acid/Alkaline Theory of Disease Is Nonsense
Gabe Mirkin, M.D.

Have you seen advertisements for products such as coral calcium or alkaline water that are supposed to neutralize acid in your bloodstream? Taking calcium or drinking alkaline water does not affect blood acidity. Anyone who tells you that certain foods or supplements make your stomach or blood acidic does not understand nutrition.

You should not believe that it matters whether foods are acidic or alkaline, because no foods change the acidity of anything in your body except your urine. Your stomach is so acidic that no food can change its acidity. Citrus fruits, vinegar, and vitamins such as ascorbic acid or folic acid do not change the acidity of your stomach or your bloodstream. An entire bottle of calcium pills or antacids would not change the acidity of your stomach for more than a few minutes.

All foods that leave your stomach are acidic. Then they enter your intestines where secretions from your pancreas neutralize the stomach acids. So no matter what you eat, the food in stomach is acidic and the food in the intestines is alkaline.

You cannot change the acidity of any part of your body except your urine. Your bloodstream and organs control acidity in a very narrow range. Anything that changed acidity in your body would make you very sick and could even kill you. Promoters of these products claim that cancer cells cannot live in an alkaline environment and that is true, but neither can any of the other cells in your body.

All chemical reactions in your body are started by chemicals called enzymes. For example, if you convert chemical A to chemical B and release energy, enzymes must start these reactions. All enzymes function in a very narrow range of acidity. (The degree of acidity or alkalinity is expressed as "pH."). If your blood changes its acidity or alkalinity for any reason, it is quickly changed back to the normal pH or these enzymes would not function and the necessary chemical reactions would not proceed in your body.

For example, when you hold your breath, carbon dioxide accumulates in your bloodstream very rapidly and your blood turns acidic, and you will become uncomfortable or even pass out. This forces you to start breathing again immediately, and the pH returns to normal. If your kidneys are damaged and cannot regulate the acidity of your bloodstream, chemical reactions stop, poisons accumulate in your bloodstream, and you can die.

Certain foods can leave end-products called ash that can make your urine acid or alkaline, but urine is the only body fluid that can have its acidity changed by food or supplements. ALKALINE-ASH FOODS include fresh fruit and raw vegetables. ACID-ASH FOODS include ALL ANIMAL PRODUCTS, whole grains, beans and other seeds. These foods can change the acidity of your urine, but that's irrelevant since your urine is contained in your bladder and does not affect the pH of any other part of your body.

When you take in more protein than your body needs, your body cannot store it, so the excess amino acids are converted to organic acids that would acidify your blood. But your blood never becomes acidic because as soon as the proteins are converted to organic acids, calcium leaves your bones to neutralize the acid and prevent any change in pH. Because of this, many scientists think that taking in too much protein may weaken bones to cause osteoporosis.

Cranberries have been shown to help prevent recurrent urinary tract infections, but not because of their acidity. They contain chemicals that prevent bacteria from sticking to urinary tract cells.

Taking calcium supplements or drinking alkaline water will not change the pH of your blood. If you hear someone say that your body is too acidic and you should use their product to make it more alkaline, you would be wise not to believe anything else the person tells you.

________________

Dr. Mirkin is an associate clinical professor of pediatrics at Georgetown University School of Medicine and is board-certified in four specialties: allergy and immunology; sports medicine; pediatrics; and pediatric immunology. He practices medicine in Kensington, Maryland; produces and hosts a syndicated radio that can be heard online; publishes a monthly newsletter (The Mirkin Report); and has written books on sportsmedicine, weight control, and low-fat eating. His Web site contains reports on hundreds of topics.

http://www.quackwatch.org/00AboutQuackwatch/funding.html

But, there are studies that indicate taking calcium can help prevent colonic cancer.

And this from http://www.brianmac.demon.co.uk/lactic.htm when discussing lactic acid in relation to sport, a by product of anaerobic respiration (ie the same as in cancer conditions):

Sodium Bicarbonate (An Alkaline)

"Energy production via anaerobic glycolysis, which is particularly important for events lasting between 30 seconds and 15 minutes, increases the acidity inside the muscle cells and very soon after does the same to the blood. It is this increase in acidity, within the muscle cells, that is a major factor in producing fatigue. If there was some way to reduce the acidity within the muscle cells, one could theoretically delay fatigue and thus continue exercising at a very high intensity for longer.

Sodium bicarbonate is an alkalising agent and therefore reduces the acidity of the blood (known as a buffering action). By buffering acidity in the blood, bicarbonate may be able to draw more of the acid produced within the muscle cells out into the blood and thus reduce the level of acidity within the muscle cells themselves. This could delay the onset of fatigue."

To me, this indicates that the ph level of the blood can indeed be influenced by an outside agent.

You are qite correct.

DCA was originally used to reduce acidosis and lower bllod acidity to normal. Certain extreme medical conditions do move the blood pH levels outside normal limits.

Usually muscular acidosis cause by exercise exhibits itself as muscle aches and stiffness and in extreme case as a change in blood pH levels. Acidosis can also shows up in Urine pH levels before blood pH levels change .

I will shortly be posting some actual patient pH data for general information as ADMIN are making changes to accomodate posting of this type of real data.

Best Regards

John A.

Research Chemist
>
>"Energy production via anaerobic glycolysis, which is
>particularly important for events lasting between 30 seconds
>and 15 minutes, increases the acidity inside the muscle
>cells and very soon after does the same to the blood. It is
>this increase in acidity, within the muscle cells, that is a
>major factor in producing fatigue. If there was some way to
>reduce the acidity within the muscle cells, one could
>theoretically delay fatigue and thus continue exercising at
>a very high intensity for longer.
>
>Sodium bicarbonate is an alkalising agent and therefore
>reduces the acidity of the blood (known as a buffering
>action). By buffering acidity in the blood, bicarbonate may
>be able to draw more of the acid produced within the muscle
>cells out into the blood and thus reduce the level of
>acidity within the muscle cells themselves. This could delay
>the onset of fatigue."
>
>
>To me, this indicates that the ph level of the blood can
>indeed be influenced by an outside agent.

http://www.mdanderson.org/departments/lacc/dIndex.cfm?pn=E1F3BAB1-7454-11D4-AEBD00508BDCCE3A

Here's hoping that ADMIN will indeed NOT be making changes to accomodate said posting.

If this so-called "researcher" has real data that is indicative of anything other than mumbo jumbo, let him write up a paper, inclusive of said data, and submit it for publication in a legitimate journal.

Let everyone be reminded that Dr. Evangelos Michelakis, et al, chose that exact course, the journal-publication course, to reveal to the world the results of their studies vis-a-vis DCA.

Michelakis, et al, are, of course, legitimate scientists who had very significant findings; findings that could stand up to rigorous peer reviews and all the other checks and balances that occur before a scientific paper is published.. duh.

Hello Incomeingduck

I am not sure what your problem is or who you represent but feel free to discuss my postings which will follow and if possible discuss them in an intelligent fashion.

One might be offended by your remarks but I suspect that there is some underlying reason for your misdirected postings which tempers my response.

As I posted earlier I will send you some patient pH results if you provide your email details.

John A.
Research Chemist

I am an analytical chemist and I can see from the careful use of words in the articles you are directed to that there is some degree of deliberate misinformation going on here. To an analyst alkalinity and basicity are meaningfully different terms but in the context of the issue of blood pH the difference is meaningless. There is clearly an attempt here (deliberate or otherwise) to confuse the majority of readers.

We are led to believe that an MD is stating that it is not possible to change your blood pH. In fact Dr Mirkin states "that anything that changes the pH of your body can make you very sick and death could result." could he be thinking of Cancer by any chance???

It is well documented that hard exercise creates lactate which in turn causes a drop in the blood pH -- and yes, in the healthy body, mechanisms exist which rapidly correct that imbalance.

Likewise it is well documented that cancer cells favour glycolysis with the consequential continuous formation of excessive levels of lactate, this also is able to reduce the blood pH -- just as in the exercise situation, the body has mechanisms to correct the imbalance, but because lactate production is both excessive and continuous, the rebalancing process is also continuous and never quite catches up, leaving the blood continuously at a lower than optimal pH.

The claim that you cannot change the pH of blood is patently wrong -- we have in front of us three 'simple' mechanisms by which to change the pH:- first -hard exercise, second -get cancer and third - take DCA.

Of course, the good doctor is totally right in his statement that any change to stomach pH (for example by eating sodium bicarbonate) has a trivial and very short duration, because the stomach automatically acidifies the bicarbonate by making more acid (and a good gassy burp in the process). However, this does not mean that we cannot either help or hinder our bodies fight to compensate for the lactate churned out by the cancer. If we eat phosphate rich hard cheese, the phosphate will finish up as phosphoric acid in the blood worsening the job the body has of trying to mop up the acidity by stripping calcium out of our bones and dumping it into the blood to balance up the acidity.

Conversely, if we include a considerable amount of citrate (even citric acid) in our diet, then it will finally end up as bicarbonate in our blood. This has the effect of balancing out some of the lactate produced by the cancer and so reduces the burden on the body to continually fight to keep the pH in the optimum zone.

I have absolutely no idea if it is important to help the body maintain an optimum pH in our fight against cancer, however, intuition leads me to believe that helping our bodies maintain an optimum pH is likely to be in our favour, if only in helping up feel good.

I agree with you, there is much mis-direction. I have seen medical articles on the web that have statements similar to this:

"There is no evidence to support that taking Calcium is beneficial in the treatment of cancer".

However, from experience I take statements like this with a big pinch of salts as they usually ACTUALLY mean:

"Nobody has carried out any studies to see if taking Calcium is beneficial in the treatment of cancer".

In my post above:
>When this discusses the body's mechanism and regulation of
>ph, this is the action of the Parathyroid Gland (Parathyroid
>Hormone) and Thyroid (Calcitonin), which regulate release
>and resorption of calcium from the bones into the blood.

I was interested to see if cancer restricts or increases the level of
Parathyroid Hormone or Calcitonin, which would alter the natural level of calcium in the blood.

I was also interested if the calcium level in the bones of long term cancer sufferers is different than healthy people (if the effect of chemotherapy was eliminated). If it was, it might indicate that cancer cells have a subtle role in controlling ph.

Is anybody aware of any studies in this area?

Calcium depresses Vit D, which has been shown to be good against PCa:

http://www.csmc.edu/3426.html

Back in 1999 or so, there was report that 2000 mg/day of Vit D correlated with prostate cancer but it was disputed by other studies.

So if taking calcium, then Vit D should be increased, like from cod liver oil, etc, and with 10 - 15 minutes/day of sunlight for the skin to produce the active form D3. And g/day should be 1000 - 1500 g to be safe.

I'm considering this very issue in planning 3 months of DCA and heavy calcium ascorbate.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=72115

Beta Sitosterol Gains Popularity For Natural Alternative In US And Europe For Prostate Problems

Main Category: Complementary Medicine / Alternative Medicine News
Article Date: 26 May 2007 - 12:00 PDT

Article Also Appears In
Urology / NephrologyProstate / Prostate Cancer

Men in Europe and the United States have turned to an all natural ingredient called beta sitosterol for relief of enlarged prostate and prostatitis symptoms to avoid prescription drug side effects.

Beta-Sitosterol is a popular natural alternative used for years by men in Europe. Doctors in Europe commonly prescribe natural plant type alternatives to help prostate enlargement and lower urinary tract symptoms. Beta Sitosterol, Saw palmetto, pygeum, and nettle root are common plant-based drugs prescribed to millions of men in Europe.

Men in the US are now following the popular natural remedy to solve their prostate problems, according to the product's makers.

Studies have confirmed that use of beta-sitosterol has helped in alleviating the types of prostate discomfort that aging men so frequently encounter.

Men worry about the side effects taking prescription medicine for prostate problems. They are seeking all natural alternatives like Beta Sitosterol to relieve prostate problems. "Beta-Sitosterol is a natural key ingredient in natural prostate health". Beta-sitosterol is plant sterol found in almost all plants. It is one of the main subcomponents of a group of plant sterols known as phytosterols. It is white in color and waxy in nature. It has a chemical structure that is very similar to cholesterol. High levels of Beta Sitosterol are found in rice bran, wheat germ, corn oils, and soybeans.

According to its makers, it is totally safe, highly effective and all natural with absolutely no side effects or interactions with other medications. The benefits of Beta Sitosterol: solve frequent urination problems, defend against prostate cancer, improve urination flow, gain complete control, avoid drugs, prostate surgery, side effects, restore sex drive, virility, sexual stamina, lower PSA score, eliminate worry.

HealthyChoiceNaturals is a company dedicated to providing natural health care alternatives, has received numerous testimonials from customers taking natural Beta Sitosterol stating this "natural alternative has been highly effective with absolutely no side effects or interactions with other medications".

References:

Berges RR, Windeler J, Trampisch HJ, Senge T. Randomised, placebo-controlled, double-blind clinical trial of beta-sitosterol in patients with benign prostatic hyperplasia. Beta-sitosterol Study Group. Lancet. 1995 Jun 17;345(8964):1529-32. PMID 7540705

Awad AB, Gan Y, Fink CS. Effect of beta-sitosterol, a plant sterol, on growth, protein phosphatase 2A, and phospholipase D in LNCaP cells. Nutr Cancer. 2000;36(1)4-8. PMID 10798219

http://www.healthychoicenaturals.com

=================

Serum prostate-specific antigen as a predictor of prostate volume in Korean men with lower urinary tract symptoms

H B Shim1, J K Lee1, T Y Jung1 and J H Ku1

1Department of Urology, Seoul Veterans Hospital, Seoul, South Korea

Correspondence: Dr JH Ku, Department of Urology, Seoul Veterans Hospital, 6-2, Doonchon-2-dong, Kangdong-gu, Seoul 134-791, South Korea. E-mail: randyku@hanmail.net

Received 28 September 2006; Revised 6 November 2006; Accepted 6 November 2006; Published online 2 January 2007.
Top of page
Abstract

The aim of the study was to assess the utility of prostate-specific antigen (PSA) as a predictor of prostate volume indexes (total prostate volume (TPV), transition zone volume and transition zone index) in Korean men with lower urinary tract symptoms (LUTS). From September 2003 to April 2006, 3431 patients with LUTS were included in the study; they had a median age of 63.8 years, a median prostate volume of 22.6 ml and a median serum PSA of 1.04 ng/ml. Men with a baseline PSA of >10 ng/ml were excluded, to reduce the likelihood of including occult prostate cancer. Prostate volume indexes and serum PSA levels had an age-dependent log-linear relationship. Receiver operating characteristic curve analysis showed that PSA had good predictive value for various prostate volume indexes thresholds. The approximate age-specific criteria for detecting men with a TPV of >40 ml are PSA levels of 1.20, 1.44 and 1.72 ng/ml for men with LUTS in their sixth, seventh and eighth decades, respectively. The results show that serum PSA identifies Korean men with large prostates reasonably well. Korean men may produce and/or release more PSA per unit prostate volume than white men. The cutoffs for PSA and prostate volume to response to LUTS therapy should be determined in this population.
Keywords:

prostate-specific antigen, prostate volume, prostatic hyperplasia

=============

http://www.nature.com/pcan/journal/v10/n2/abs/4500937a.html

I do not know if PC can tell the difference between I & II.

Proscar took over 3 months to become fully effective in my case. In their blurb they say it is slow.. They do not lie.
I may have seen an order of magnitude reduction in my PSA, it went from 1.0 - 0.4 - 0.2 - 0.1 over the 12 month period when I was also being hit with Zoladex. Zoladex alone dropped my PSA to 1.0. At the first test I thought it was not going to work, but I had only been taking it for 10 days. Then I reasoned that I should be able to get the same results on 5mg every other day. That was the case. I have been taking it every day for the last 3 months. Next test is 19th June. Then I will have been off Zoladex for 12 months. To cover my bases I do have a prescription for Lupron.